Ira Glass, the creator and host of the radio show 'This American Life,' is coming to Boulder. He’s bringing his show, “Seven Things I’ve Learned,”to Chautauqua Auditorium on Saturday, July 29.
The public radio legend himself sat down with KUNC host Nikole Robinson Carroll for a chat ahead of the show.
The following transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.
Nikole Robinson Carroll: Ira Glass. Welcome, welcome, welcome!
Ira Glass: Nice to be here.
NRC: First of all, what can you tell us about "Seven Things I've Learned" for those who are unfamiliar with it?
IG: I mean, "Seven Things I've Learned...." It's really just an excuse to tell about your stories on stage. That seems like a plausible title. And really, it's just seven stories that are just really good stories. Some of them are actually things that I have learned — some of them very important things, but some of them, you know, just things I've observed or things you can get out of a story. And it's a mix of, like, funny stories and other kinds of stories. And I'm up one stage with video and audio clips and I can kind of recreate the sound of the radio show around me as I talk with music and quotes and all that.
NRC: Where did the inspiration to do this come from? Just the compulsion to to share the things you've experienced over the years?
IG: I like going out on stage. I like, you know, just being in front of an audience. And since This American Life began, just as part of having a radio show once a month, I've gone to a different city every month to do something with the local public radio station. And so basically, I've made different kinds of talks, and this is, like, the latest iteration. And really, this one is nice because it's sort of like a modular thing. So I can throw in new segments and take out old segments and whatever I think would be fun that particular week I can throw in, including stuff that refers to things that were just on the air very recently.
NRC: How has that process or that lineup evolved and how do you decide what to switch out and what to keep?
IG: I mean, honestly, it's usually hard to figure out something to take out because the stuff that's in there now is working pretty well. Generally, what'll happen is there'll just be something that comes up on the show and I'll think, "Oh, that'll be fun to talk about on stage and you know, pull some excerpt and tell a story about it." So it's not very scientific.
NRC: And I understand part of it is where you talk about picking up wisdom that you've gotten from your colleagues, like the people who worked on Serial and S-Town, those massively popular podcasts that spun off from This American Life. How did those podcasts and the people involved impact your work?
IG: I mean, it's interesting because I feel I feel like those shows are often edited in a different way than you edit our show. I mean, because the stories have to play out over five or six or seven or ten or 12 episodes, you really have to think about how the storytelling works in a very different way. And I remember when we did the first season of Serial, I mean, this is something that it just seems so basic and it's something that everybody takes for granted now. But the actual experiment of that first season of Serial, where Sarah Koenig did her story about Adnan Syed — the thing that we didn't know is, could you do a story that's a documentary story and start one week and have people come back the next week to hear what happens next? Like, we didn't know if it would work the way that episodic TV works. And so there are all kinds of things built into the structure of Serial and the other shows that we do as serial podcasts that are structured more like television than like This American Life. There's a different kind of bait to pull you forward, and there's a different way to think about the arc of an hour and the character arcs and how they have to evolve from week to week over time. And so it's just a really different and kind of enjoyable game to play.
NRC: Speaking of This American Life and how your work has evolved over the years, TAL has been around for decades and is still going strong. So what have you and your team done to keep the show relevant and relatable and otherwise attractive to the millions of listeners who tune in or download it?
IG: The most important challenge, I think, is to just figure out new stuff to do that you haven't done before with our show. What that means is like we're doing a mix of kind of serious big documentary stories, but also like we would have a huge amount of stuff that's in there just because it's amusing and funny and fun. And I feel like just just from week to week, I feel like we'll try to mix it up. We did an episode that was that was about rats, you know, inspired by New York's mayor, who's gone on a war against rats that is surely going to fail for reasons that we talk about in our show. But then but then we found all these other really amazing stories about rats, including like Alberta, Canada has no rats because they've kept them out an area the size of California plus Oregon combined. We've had this story about a guy who came to love rats. At some point in meeting about it, somebody said, Well, we're hearing from all these people like you never hear the rat point of view. And we decided I would co-host the show with two rats. And were these two actors from the TV show South Side who basically improvised the rats point of view? And then we pitched up their voices, kind of like Alvin and the Chipmunks. And I feel like in any given week at work, we're just trying different stuff that that we haven't done before or heard of anybody else doing.
NRC: You talked about the humor, the levity of This American Life typically, but going through the COVID-19 pandemic gave This American Life and a lot of other shows a more serious tone, naturally. How do you temper dark times or a dark atmosphere like that with the humor and humanity that the show is famous for?
IG: Making the show during COVID was hard. Like, we all as a staff were in our separate homes. We're a documentary show. There's a period where we wouldn't even interview people in person. The entire show was done through phone calls or Zoom calls. We did an entire hour on a hospital in Detroit. You can't tell when you listen to it, but none of us ever set foot in the hospital. And it was all recorded by by some of the medical staff who would record scenes on their phones for us. And then we would do these interviews, you know, over Zoom and kind of combine them in a way where you can't tell. And then I feel like we all on the staff just felt the kind of like freaked out malaise I think a lot of people felt. I mean, obviously COVID still exists and it's still happening. But since those days of the lockdown, you know, I feel like we've really consciously tried to, like, come back with energetic fun and especially as people on staff have felt better and more normal. One of the things about our show from the beginning when we went on the air in the nineties was that it was, you know, a public radio show. And it's a kind of documentary show. But we didn't want people listening to the show because they felt like it would be good for them. We just wanted the show to be an entertainment that would take things up and then people could just enjoy it.
NRC: Now, after years and years of interviewing people, I hear you're not a fan of being interviewed yourself. What do you wish people would ask you in an interview?
IG: The thing that's hard in an interview is that I do so many interviews. It's hard not to be editing the interview in my head as it's going. Like, Nikole, you know, like when you're doing an interview, every time the interviewee answers, you're kind of rating, 'Am I going to keep that sentence? Is this answer good enough? Am I going to throw this question out?' And I feel like it's hard for me to turn that off when I'm being interviewed. As you and I are having this conversation, what I'm doing is I'm [thinking],'That wasn't such a good answer. Maybe we should keep this answer. Maybe we should move it to the top.' Not that you need the help; just because I can't turn it off. Occasionally somebody will ask me things about the business side of the show, and I have to say, I almost never get asked about it. And I like it when that happens, because I feel proud of the business side of the show. I run the business part of the show, not just the editorial part, and it's a nicely run business. It makes jobs for, at this point, like 30 people. And we've been running profitably. We make a small profit every year for the last, like, you know, 20-something years and were widely distributed. It was very carefully done and a million decisions along the way — originally with with my co-founder, Tory Malatia, but then for probably half the show's history without him. When our show first went on the air, we were definitely not seen as an obvious success. In fact, it took us like four or five years before we were really stable and on a lot of stations and doing well enough that it felt like, okay, we were going to be fine. And I feel like when you're in that situation where you have any kind of project, but especially a creative project, and it's basically being made out of idealism. I think the more idealistic your project, kind of the more cunning you have to be on the business side. We knew originally that to get onto public radio stations, the way that it works in public radio is, you have to talk every single station into picking you up. It's not like a big network, like, you know, NBC or ABC, where a network boss in some city says, 'All the stations are going to take the show.' With public radio, it's decentralized. That's one of the strengths of it as a system. And so every station decides for itself. And basically we knew that at the beginning, there was really no reason for stations to pick us up. And also program managers didn't want to be bothered. And also, like, nobody knew who we were and the way that we got on to our stations really was with the pledge drive. We recognized that the stations don't need another show, but what they need is really good pledge drive material that's entertaining and brings in a lot of money. And so, basically, we started making these little three-to-six minute modules that stations could run — not when our show was on because they would put us on at, you know, weird times late at night because they weren't sure about us, but you could run them. Like Morning Edition and All Things Considered, where lots of people listen to the radio and then they would bring in tons of money. And also in the modules we say the name of the show, so it promotes the show and stations really wanted those modules because they were really fun to listen to and brought in a ton of money. We told them, 'You can get them, but you have to pick up the show.' That is an example of just using what opportunities seemed to exist, you know what I mean? In order to get on the air and find an audience.
NRC: I will never forget the the pledge drive spots where people turned their friends in for not supporting the stations that they listen to.
IG: You know, the problem with those spots, Nikole, is that there came a point where we had done it enough that whenever I called somebody, they would cave immediately, which is so disappointing. I was like, 'No, no, no, I need you to argue with me. Like, I've got to talk you into it.' They need to kind of be the surrogate for a listener who isn't giving. They need to give me their all the arguments so I can try to talk them out of it.
NRC: One of the hallmarks of This American Life — and it's very reflected in those spots — is your distinct way of delivering what you have to say. So how did you develop your stand-out hosting and storytelling style, that very "Ira" cadence that everyone knows?
IG: Part of the sound of our show is determined by the story structure, and so we structure stories in a particular way so that they have plot and the plot pulls you in and pulls you forward. And hopefully, you just want to hear what's going to happen. And then and then by the end of the story, it has to deliver some sort of, like, 'Here's what to think of what just happened,' you know. And so we structure carefully like that because by just experimenting with different ways to do it, I feel like that turned out to be the most effective. And then in terms of the way that I am on the air, I think it's best for anybody on the radio to be as close to their real personality as you can be. You know what I mean? So the things that I'm interested in and the things I find funny and the things that I find moving, you know, are just the real things. And we encourage everybody on the show who's a reporter to do that. And then in terms of the way I perform, again, I think that that radio gets to you the most [when it] sounds like the person speaking to you is really talking. And so although what I say on the air - like, I have to write a script, which if you think about it, like, of course there's a script because I'm talking to specific quotes and things like that. So there's a script, but I'm trying to perform it in a way where, you know, the script is sort of loosely held and trying to talk as much as I really can talk and sound like I'm talking.
NRC: Do you still get the classic gripes about vocal fry, filler words, things that a lot of listeners have latched on to and that are integral to your presentation at this point? Do you still kind of have the the old-school radio people tutting at you?
IG: People still complain about me mumbling and not enunciating properly, and they are correct to complain, you know. And being like I am somebody on the radio, better enunciation would probably be a good idea. And then vocal fry. I mean, it's funny, the war over vocal fry.
NRC: And women get razzed for it a lot more than men do.
IG: Men never get razzed for it, and women do all the time. And it's just how people talk. We did a story on this years ago where we talked to somebody who follows this carefully. And what she says is this is just the way young women talk. They're actually just letting that part of their voice exist. You know, once something becomes the way people talk, well, that's that. And that's kind of where I am on it, too. You know, if you think about anything you put on the radio, like, you just want it to be a real person talking. And so the host of the show has to be a real person as well. And the reporters.
NRC: It may just be me, but it seems like a lot of people I know have an Ira impression. Do you get that a lot? And can can you think of any that stand out either as a favorite or that just kind of made you cringe?
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@mr_bigbux Reply to @ji_unit #iraglass #impression #thisamericanlife #npr #podcast #minions #minionsriseofgru #minionsquad ♬ original sound - Mr Bigbux
IG: The ones that are most disturbing to listen to are the ones that are the most accurate. There's a guy on Tik-tok who's uncanny. Like, I should have him host for me when I lose my voice or whenever I want to go out of town. He's so good. And then years ago we did a "Doppelgangers" episode. Fred Armisen was on Saturday Night Live. And basically, I had heard that he does a really good imitation of me and he's just an incredible mimic. And we were doing a doppelganger show and I was like, 'Oh my God — we should have him come in and co-host as my evil twin.' And I have to say, it was really was hard watching somebody who's such a skilled performer just imitate me back to me in the room. Like, until that moment, it hadn't occurred to me, like, the way you talk, it's such a part of you. It's so expressive of who you are, like the way that you make your sentences and pause and when you speed up and when you slow down. It's so built into your personality that to watch a skilled mimic do it perfectly, it makes you feel like a Muppet, you know? It's not a good feeling to feel. If somebody can just capture that part of you perfectly, it just feels bad. I think one thing that I'm very used to is the notion that we put on a radio show and not everybody is going to like every episode, and that's fine. Like, people don't have to like me. They don't have to like every episode. They don't have to like the show at all. It's totally fine. And so I'm pretty used to that and sort of don't care. But it's just hard to not to notice when it happens. I can tell you one other story about this. I don't know. Again, I'm editing your interview in my head, so maybe this is one beat too long, but the way that we found Fred and found out that he does an imitation is that I ran into somebody who worked on Saturday Night Live. I was going to a play. I want to say it was Seth Meyers who at the time was the head writer at Saturday Night Live who said to me, 'Oh, I know who you are.' And then we shook hands. And he says, 'You know, Fred Armisen, on our staff, he does a perfect imitation of you, and he keeps pitching sketches where he can play that character. And we have to keep telling him, 'Fred, that guy isn't famous enough to be on Saturday Night Live.'' Which I think is funny. I'm fine with the way it's working out. It's totally fine.
NRC: What podcasts or shows are you listening to right now? What recommendations do you have?
IG: Oh, I listen to a ton. There's a tech podcast that The New York Times started a couple months ago called Hard Fork, and I like them so much. We reached out to them to collaborate on a story. It's these two incredibly great tech columnists, Kevin Roose and Casey Newton. They're both incredibly sourced reporters. And so they have all this inside dish that other people don't know yet. But the thing I like about it is that they really are out to entertain, they're both really funny and it just has a nice feeling to it. Like, it's not a heavy or boring show. It's really fun to listen to. I just listened to the second episode of of a very small podcast that I think most people haven't heard of called Classy. And it's Jonathan Menjivar, who used to work at our show, and and Jonathan is from a working class family and now makes podcasts for a living. And as he talks about in the show, there's all these conversations about like class and money that we never really have in a frank way, and he tries to have them. And if you're interested, I really recommend you go to episode two where he interviews [Fresh Air host] Terry Gross, his former boss, about what it was like for him to work for her as his first job in radio and what a fish out of water he was, hiding it from everybody and then listening to her hear those stories and listening to him trying to fit in with people at a public radio station. It's just really good radio. It's so good.
NRC: That does sound really good. Terry is one of my heroes anyway.
IG: Mine too. Mine too.
NRC: What advice do you have for public radio professionals, and other storytellers, based on the success you've seen?
IG: I mean, I don't feel like other people on public radio need my advice. I think in general, like, all of our shows are better when we're making stuff that we're truly, deeply curious about and amused by. And everybody should should, you know, do their own work and find that for them.
NRC: I'm wondering about legacy public radio programs and networks like NPR and, really, any news media outlet for that matter. What do they need to do to not get left behind in this increasingly more digital age? I feel like This American Life is onto something with with some of that.
IG: I feel like the lessons of how well we've done since podcasts are not necessarily transferable to a daily news show because people have so many sources for news. If you're running All Things Considered or Morning Edition, you're competing with everything on the Internet that has to do with what happened today. And then you're also competing with the fact that unlike, you know, 25 years ago, a large portion of the country has no interest in what the fact-based mainstream media has to say on any subject. So so it's just a very difficult environment. And in a certain way, [on] This American Life, we have a bunch of advantages that help us in that our stories, even when we touch on the news, they're still just stories about people in a situation that unfold like little movies, you know what I mean? And so even people who might be suspicious of the politics of a mainstream public radio program, they'll listen to us — we hear that all the time. Because to them, it just seems like, 'Oh, you guys just do a bunch of stories.'
NRC: Before we wrap up, I understand you've been to our neck of the woods a few times now. Anything you look forward to seeing, doing or eating when you come to Colorado?
IG: Oh my God. I wish I had a really wonderful answer to this. I've been to this Chautauqua outpost before and I actually kind of love that. Chautauqua is fascinating to me. It, basically, before the existence of radio, was public radio. It had the same mission, but it preexisted the technology of radio. It was a place where thinkers and speechifiers, but also musicians, and with Chautauqua was a lot of a lot of religion, very different than public radio. But it was a very high minded mission, that Americans should come together and consider the big ideas of the day and join in a community and talk through what we face and hear great speakers. And for me, it's exciting to be on any of the Chautauqua campuses. There's one in upstate New York that I've been to. Also, the idealism of the mission of Chautauqua is something that I like as a piece of history.
